02-10-2011 at 1:23 AM

I think your assumption that high TPs are due to waterbowling is a little erroneous. Talk about the top dawg list has been increasing these last couple months, leaving many users making declarations that they intend to breed and train the first 1k GSD or the first 2k Sheltie and whatnot. What we are seeing is those users realizing their goals and we should be happy with the growth and improvement, not resenting it.<br /> <br /> I think one must also be careful in cheapening all the hard work those players do by breeding and *training* those dogs (as the vast majority of dogs on this site, regardless of TP are trained, not bowled) is very hurtful. <br /> Also, NO advantage in training is any less moral than any other. <br /> Users who user scholar collars are not more honest than those who use the trainer perk or the waterbowl, or any combination thereof.<br /> A user who purchases a waterbowl often does so by spending REAL MONEY earned doing REAL WORK at a REAL JOB. To say that that item is not earned is a slap in the face.<br /> <br /> If a few vocal users are so terribly concerned with competing with waterbowled dogs, the most reasonable thing would be to suggest to raise the prices of waterbowls, thus making them even more difficult to obtain, but that would mean that they would be even further out of reach to the very users who are complaining, so I'm sure there would be an objection to that.<br /> <br /> Another solution might be to encourage users to charge more for higher TP dogs. I'm seeing potential top dawg Corgis being sold for 1k by the very users complaining about their problems selling lower TP dogs. If one undercuts the market like that, of course there are going to be problems.<br /> <br /> I, having waterbowled one dog and having done that purely out of anger towards someone who expressed I was 'not allowed' to train my dogs past hers, am rather ambivalent to their use, and I think everyone would do well to remember that there is nothing against the rules, immoral, or cheap about the use of an item available to every user, provided they put in the work to obtain it.

02-10-2011 at 1:20 AM

<b>Don't Support</b><br /> <br /> Yes, Waterbowls cost money. For some reason people view this as the easy way out in this thread which irritates me.<br /> <br /> You can get a waterbowl by referring people - how I've gotten every single water bowl I've used/sold - you can get it by saving alacrity cash, buying bones and then buying a water bowl.<br /> <br /> But whether you buy it with money or whether you buy it with your own hard earned cash - really, I work hard for my 8.35 an hour - is pointless, either way you earn it. It's just a different earning than hand clicking.<br /> <br /> ::<br /> <br /> As for the whole "Inbred" thing. People choose to inbreed. You can't change that whether or not you remove the water bowl. And I have had over 12 dogs on the Top Dawg list, with I believe two on there right now, and all have been hand maxed except one. My Syote came from many dogs I hand maxed and a careful breeding plan to reach Top Dawg.<br /> <br /> It's not hard to hand max a dog and get it on the Top Dawg list, regardless of TP. Even if two or three are waterbowled, most of the others are still hand maxed and therefore it's not too hard.<br /> <br /> People just don't understand that the Top Dawg list is a constant competition, even while you are finishing hand maxing your 1000 TP dog, someone else is halfway through maxing a 1500 TP dog, and another is starting to max a 1700 TP dog and therefore your dog won't be on the list long.<br /> <br /> It'd be unfair to those who have waterbowls to punish them for earning them.<br /> <br /> If you want the "inbred" thing fixed, lobby for it to be impossible to inbreed. I know there's some dogs on the Top GSD list that are inbred, most come from one or two players who /choose/ to inbreed. Not for lack of other dogs out there. Anyone can spend half a month and get a good enough dog to breed your top dawg to that isn't related. It's a choice.<br /> <br /> If you want there to not be high TP dogs, you should lobby against the chances and breeder perks. Those are what really is skyrocketing the TP, not waterbowls. (Well the competition of the lists is true too. That's why the small dogs mostly are still under 1000, less competition, less breeders.)<br /> <br /> Either way, I worked extremely hard to break the 1000 TP barrier for GSDs and I didn't do it by inbreeding, nor do I currently breed my top dawgs to whomever offers.<br /> <br /> Inbreeding is a choice, it won't change if you limit waterbowls. Neither will the growth of high TP or the competition of the Top Dawg List. That is why I won't support this, it won't work.

02-9-2011 at 7:09 PM

People are forgetting that waterbowls cost $20 or $10 with double bone special. It requires a lot of money just to waterbowl one dog. Everyone also has to remember that not everybody could donate and there is a rock bottom for everyone’ real life bank account.<br /> <br /> The waterbowl is good for high TP dogs. There -is- a way to catch up, it just requires a lot of work. The waterbowl is a very pricey alternative when one could simply train the dog. <br /> <br /> I agree with the dead dogs part that they should be removed but that will easily be done with how fast TP is raising. <br /> <br /> As for the inbred bit, I think that’d be a little harsh. There’s already a penalty for it and it’s not harming anything except being on top dog? Inbred dogs are still dogs and should be able to be on the Top Dawg rankings. <br /> <br /> To delete incest/waterbowled dogs off the top list is rather…childish. You have to remember other players saved up their money/worked/payed out of their own pockets just to waterbowl. <br /> <br /> Just because someone’s lines isn’t making it on Top Dawg doesn’t mean the whole game should change. It means one should work harder and take greater pride when they do get on the Top Dawg list. <br /> <br /> I can understand the frusteration of the waterbowl. I haven’t used it yet and don’t plan to until training is going to take me -weeks-. It’s aggrivating to work your self tired training then see someone surpass you because they simply used a waterbowl. Yes, it feels like they’re cheating, but it isn’t. <br /> <br /> They’re draining their cash supply while you’re keeping yours. There -is- a loss for waterbowling. <br /> <br /> <br /> I just find it unfair that people who worked up for the money to waterbowl get discouraged by other players because they’re competing for the same spot… It’s a part of the game so why not do it? <br /> <br /> Top Dawgs list is supposed to be competed over. No matter how looked down on it is, waterbowl is an expensive path to take. <br /> <br /> To limit the competing will just be silly so other can run up and do it. <br /> <br /> If waterbowling is gone, a one time used item, then what about trainer perks? New players without them might complain because it’s an unfair advantage for the ones who already have a hold. They might complain they start rock bottom and work hard to get up there. <br /> <br /> That’s just my opinion. Waterbowling is just another way of quick, expensive training.<br /> <br /> I don’t support the idea of incest/waterbowled dogs getting removed off the list because they simply are on the list and my lines or my friend’s lines and other lines aren’t. Or destroy waterbowls because they make your rival get on the list. <br /> <br /> I’m working to get my lines up on the Top Dawg list and waterbowls are in use, but I’m still trying. I will get there eventually because they need new blood at some point in their lines, and if you all are trying to get there too, you can simply not sell and they will be stuck on that spot, having to train up a new line to breed up with their current ‘Top Dawg’.<br /> <br /> <br /> Maybe we can agree on with a limited use? Like only allowing 2 waterbowlings per month?

02-5-2011 at 2:35 AM

I support. My only problem that I've had with waterbowls is that, YES, everyone can get them. However, if you look at the top dawg list, you notice that a lot of mods are taking over the list. When moderators are overtaking something that is being used by all members, how is that fair? What I have to donate in order to get a waterbowl is a lot and I'm sure that with those older people who have their own jobs, handle their own financial business, etc. find out that waterbowls are easy to obtain. However, I can't say too much, I've alreayd had a waterbowl suggestion and I got a lot of argument so I'm not going to complain as much. But I myself would like if there was a 50% waterbowl for 20 bones and a 100% for 40. therefore you need to donate more in order to get a 100% one, y'know?

02-4-2011 at 10:59 AM

I support limiting the waterbowl effect 100% but perhaps instead of re-coding it, it could be a "waterbowl 2.0" (a separate item) so others who have already bought it are not affected.<br />also- maybe it could be sold less often?

01-16-2011 at 3:58 AM

I support the waterbowl bit =)

01-15-2011 at 9:12 PM

The problem with the support that I'm seeing here is that people are acting like the water bowl isn't an item that everyone can get. I understand the frustration that is felt when your Top Dawg is bumped by a water bowled dog, but I also have to understand that it's an option that I have as well. <br /><br />If the game were to suddenly limit the effects of the water bowl, how many people out there who purchased a stored them would be negatively affected? I certainly wouldn't appreciate I would have lost out on quite a lot of money. That is how the Amur Leopard comparison was intended, Ehm - the rarity of the item doesn't matter. The fact that something that I worked hard to get being changed because people feel it poses an unfair advantage is the part that bothers me. <br /><br />Also, the Shelties will be over 1,000TP within the month and it's not due to the magical water bowl. It's due to the Chance companion effect.

01-15-2011 at 8:43 PM

I support some form of this as well. I have previously posted my support on the thread for a separate Top Dawgs list for waterbowl'd dogs. It's irritating because my dog would have been at the number 3 spot. He will be maxed tomorrow, and yet over night 3-4 waterbowl'd dogs bumped him down the list. Waterbowl'd dogs can claim the top spot for a much longer time than hand-trained - if you hand train a dog with #1 spot potential, by the time they are maxed others with higher TP will have been born. Not so with immediate maxing (waterbowl). It's just extremely frustrating to have spent weeks or months training a dog only to see them immediately pushed down without even a little time spent on the list. <br /><br />If two lists isn't an option, maybe some form as suggested here will do. The reason I support 2 lists is that I don't think that waterbowls should be removed completely - and if people pay that much for them then they deserve to be able to max their dogs. Also, though some people find inbreeding fine (and I understand it happens in real life, I'm not against it) I prefer not to inbreed my dogs because of my experience with GSDs on this site. All the high TP GSDs are related and it's nearly impossible to find a another high TP GSD that shares no lines. It's the reason I have given up breeding GSDs. (this may have been fixed with the recent increase in TP for custom dogs).

01-15-2011 at 7:57 PM

I support the waterbowl bit, but not inbreeding bit. Look at the real world, last time I check in the UK show's dogs who make 1# are the most inbreed beast I've ever seen and they don't do a thing ( Point is that this a real life based game haha)

01-15-2011 at 7:33 PM

Ehm, I do like your idea with the two items. That would work quite nicely. Then people may not be as upset with the change. <br><br><br /><br />As for the second idea, it is less of a matter of pointing it out then it is of their tp. People already know which breeds are inbred and such. If the inbred dogs were taken off or no longer allowed from this point foreward, then people would be forced to stop inbreeding and clean up their lines.

01-15-2011 at 7:24 PM

Kael, I do not think the Amur Leopard is a good comparison to be made here. Waterbowls are available in the Monthly Shop every other month or so. Leopards were a very limited release item, and only show up again on very, very rare occassions.<br /><br /><br />That said, I agree with the idea proposed in the initial post.<br /><br />1. I think a limit on how much the waterbowls can max would be beneficial, despite how much it would upset some users who rely on them. However, I think that a combination of ideas may be better utilised, say:<br />Waterbowls max up to 1000TP, with a 10bone item also available, which would max up to 500TP.<br />That way, there would be much less value loss. It would also (in my opinion) help reform the site economy.<br /><br />2. I don't think that dead dogs should be removed from the Top Dawg list. Even if they're dead, it means someone put in the time, effort and/or money to get them maxed, and that deserves recognition. However, I think it would be a good idea if inbred (as defined by the site) dogs --- at the very least ones which would pass on the inbreeding to their offspring --- be either removed from the list, or otherwise marked somehow (even just an added "Inbred?" column, marked by either a yes or a no).

01-15-2011 at 7:13 PM

Another thing, the limit on the waterbowl would help slow the tp increase. It would make it so that higher tp dogs still needed some training after being waterbowled, thus slowing down the speed at which they can be bred. As is, if someone had enough money for magical items, they could breed a 10ktp dog in a couple of hours out of a bucnh of storeboughts. :)
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This way, they have to do at least a little work for their spot on the list

01-15-2011 at 6:45 PM

Another item would not work, The Limit is to encourage people to train their dogs. And The price of the waterbowl would drop, of course. And Shelties are still at a manageable level. Other breeds, such as GSDs and BCs are not. And the tp limit is to the equivelent of 500tp. This doesnt mean that you wouldnt be able to use it on your 600tp pup. It just means that if you have a 1000tp dog, it would do 50% of its training. With a 1500tp dog, it would be 33% trained and so on.

01-15-2011 at 6:37 PM

I can't agree with that. Magical water bowls are most helpful when it comes to dogs with TP in excess of 500 and almost essential with dogs with TP in excess of 1000. I have a line bred Border Collie pup with TP over 1700. Without a water bowl, she would be a rather old dog by the time she was maxed. <br><br>Also, there is a difference between inbred and line bred. I have some Border Collies with the Eric/Edwina line, but out cross them by breeding to dogs of other lines. <br><br> If a limit were to be placed on the water bowl, the price should drop to 4-5 bones, as its value will be significantly less. <br><br>One aspect of this site is to breed for excellence in competition - such a limit could make such excellent dogs completely irrelevant.

01-15-2011 at 6:33 PM

I like Kael's idea as well. The other item would be lower in price and maybe available more often?

01-15-2011 at 6:32 PM

If the waterbowl was to change, then so would the price. No one will pay $20 for a bowl that doesn't even complete the training. I agree that the TP is rising too quickly...but I don't know if changing the waterbowls would solve it. Maybe having waterbowls in the monthly shop less often?

01-15-2011 at 6:31 PM

I do not support this idea, although I appreciate how well thought out and articulated it is. <br /><br />It's entirely possible to breed up to the top dawgs list - I've been working on my Shelties forever and I have a lot of Top Dawg shelties, even though I've never used a magical water bowl. <br /><br />People pay a hefty sum to obtain their water bowls and I don't think that it would be fair to limit their usage like that. It may take a while, but even players who cannot donate to Alacrity can save up enough Ala cash to exchange for Bones to buy their own magical items. It is part of the allure of the game to have items with such awesome effects. <br /><br />Limiting the use of the waterbowl like this seems sort of like limiting the effect of the Amur Leopard because 20 extra energy each hour is an unfair advantage. Doesn't seem very fair to retroactively make that change, does it?<br /><br />What you might suggest is another item which costs less which does max up to 500TP?